The false notion that undocumented immigrants affect federal elections has a long history. But this year, due in part to rising migration at the U.S. southern border, the idea could have new potency.
The false notion that undocumented immigrants affect federal elections has a long history. But this year, due in part to rising migration at the U.S. southern border, the idea could have new potency.
What risk is that? They’ve already committed a crime being the country. Many places want to allow you to vote without identification. What risk is there to try to vote for the candidate that you believe would benefit you most as someone who isn’t allowed to vote otherwise? It’s not like they’re going to get deported…
Is this really a line of reasoning people use? They’ve committed one crime so of course they’ll commit all the crimes?
Lmfao… I ask what risk there is for the illegal alien (the official name of their status)… and you all go ape-shit on something as stupid as me stating their initial entry into the country was done illegally completely ignoring the actual issue at hand, which is that they have nothing to lose to attempt to vote. Whether they do or don’t, I have no idea. But to claim there’s some risk involved when there definitely isn’t is hilarious.
Wow, you’re quite dense.
Because committing crimes risks drawing unwanted attention that would lead to deportation.
You can’t register to vote as a non-citizen, so they would have to use someone else’s identity with all the risks that go along with that.
In several states registering a car automatically registers you to vote… per https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_registration,
With specific examples of Delaware, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, California, and Oregon.
Per https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state
None of which proves legal status in the USA.
And since it’s automatic…
Delaware is the only one that actually consistently checks ID out of the ones called out on that page. You claim they’ll get caught and it will be tricky. Except you can obtain valid IDs… What is there to be caught? You can obtain a license or ID without being a citizen https://www.immigrationhelp.org/learning-center/drivers-licenses-for-immigrants. So none of this even matters. The person at the polls checking your ID doesn’t have a clue if you’re a citizen or not.
For fuck’s sake dude, did you even read what you posted? An undocumented immigrant isn’t going to be an eligible voter and won’t be able to register. The rest of your screed is based on a false premise.
For fuck’s sake dude! I did and do read! I hope you do as well. Clearly you haven’t thus-far.
You’ve not been able to show any risk at all to any people for voting while ineligible.
If you believe that only eligible voters can register and 100% of ineligible voters are caught then you’re delusional. I worked on a college campus during the voting registration pushes by several organizations. I’ve seen students who are here on student visa’s successfully register to vote. Now you think an automatic process will somehow be better? No part of registering my car proves I’m a citizen. Why would voter registration be attached to this process at all?
Personal anecdotes aren’t super convincing. People can fill out whatever paperwork they want. That doesn’t mean any of it gets approved.
The person at the polls knows if you’re registered or not. To register you need to be a citizen.
I’ve told you what the risk is, you just don’t want to hear it.
I don’t have to show an ID to vote, but I have to tell the person there my name and address. If someone else wants to vote as me it’s going to look pretty funny when the name has already been checked.
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/19-aliens-charged-voter-fraud-north-carolina-following-ice-investigation
Please find me “deportation” on this list of actual cases found where illegal aliens voted. You didn’t tell me any risk and even the “risks” on this page is all “if convicted”. You live in some fantasy world where you think everyone gets caught for everything and that voter registration is always 100% accurate. You can literally search for cases where people have registered perfectly fine but shouldn’t have been allowed to (one such example since I have it ready from another post. https://www.npr.org/2022/12/21/1144265521/florida-voter-fraud-cases-prosecution-update). To live under some fantasy that this doesn’t happen just show how disingenuous you are on the matter. The sheer numbers by which all this stuff happens should tell you that there is no real risk… illegal aliens are voting and most likely never get caught.
Ok, so you just proved what people risk by voting illegally and that they get caught for doing so:
You’ve answered your own question and didn’t even need my help in the first place.
The Florida case is about felons and not relevant to a discussion specifically about non-citizens.
Not according to any of the statistics.
So a case about a voting card being issued to somebody isn’t relevant to a group of individuals who shouldn’t have cards issued either?
I’m sorry, but you’re beyond my help if you can’t think of how that might apply.
Callous self-correctness loving asses with I ill-equipped imaginations.
What risks does the illegal face in any action that exposes them to discovery in our empathy starved, systemic abusing system?
The same one that keeps them walking amongst a populace that both hates them and loves to exploit them…
The fact that whatever the hell it was they ran from and risked for getting in illegally into the US despite all the horrors that itself brings was actually a
worsebetter choice than putting up with living with dumbass rhetoric like this.These are people seeking a life, not willing political pawns coming here to give a fuck about our game of thrones.
They’re not being deported. Click the first link. ctrl+f “deport”. Notice there’s 0 results. Deportation is not a risk for a federal crime for illegally voting.
There is no risk of them being returned to whatever you seem to think they’re running from.
As a MN resident I was curious so I looked at MN practices
Fact sheet from MN House
See Step 2? I’m not gonna go state by state, but maybe you should before assuming they all register everyone to vote regardless of eligibility.
And yeah, in MN I don’t show my ID at the polls. I think they should change that. But I also won’t be able to vote if they don’t have my name on the list at my polling place, or if someone has already voted under my name. It’s hard for an ineligible voter to vote, and if they do, there’s a high chance of detection.
Do you think there’s a systematic effort to have ineligible voters vote on behalf of registered voters in places that don’t check ID, with a database of registered-but-definitely-not-voting people, and their associated polling place? If so, have you seen any evidence of it?
This was never the point I was addressing. The original post claimed that there’s some magical risk for an illegal alien to attempt to vote. I’m calling that out specifically. There is no risk. You can walk into any place and attempt to vote. Nobody is going to stop you ESPECIALLY places that do not bother checking IDs.
The point I’m making that you’re responding to here is more along the lines of “governments already suck at their job… some people will probably even be automatically registered to vote even when ineligible”, which just makes the problem worse. My counter comment to yours would be “so you think nobody was ever accidentally automatically registered via this process?”
Is the risk of detection, prosecution, and jail or deportation not enough? I don’t see how you consider that “no risk.”
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/19-aliens-charged-voter-fraud-north-carolina-following-ice-investigation
Didn’t deter these people. And I don’t see deportation on that list for some reason. Actually it’s not even on the federal charges either. Notice also that this article is written in 2020… for the 2016 election.
Do you truly believe that others aren’t voting and that they aren’t making it through the “checks”. There’s literally millions in the USA at this point with the status of “illegal alien”. It’s just a numbers game at some point. People will vote, and some/many will make it through for one reason or another.
Hell proving the point more about the government registration systems being typical government garbage…
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/21/1144265521/florida-voter-fraud-cases-prosecution-update
So they issued her a card. This person got screwed because they tried to do things right and the system just did what it does… fuck up. How do you track any illegal aliens who may be issued voter registrations? They’re kind of living off the books at some point anyway right? It’s not like you can just show up and find them at where they report to live/work (remember they’re not supposed to work)…
These same approvals that just “work” out of nowhere also track with student visa cases I’ve seen on college campuses. They register, somehow they’re approved and get a card in the mail.
So are you saying that in these cases, where voter fraud was detected and people were charged for it, they took “no risk”? Maybe what you’re really trying to say is that regardless of what the risk of there needs to be zero chance of ineligible voters accidentally voting?
I mean, I think i get your viewpoint. There are people who “slip through the cracks” and do vote when they aren’t eligible, and they shouldn’t. I don’t deny that and I think it would be foolish to deny that any ineligible voter has ever voted.
But at the same time you seem to have a fatalistic view of the systems that are supposed to enforce those rules. Like most laws, deterrence is in the consequences of being caught and convicted. But it seems that’s not enough? And government systems don’t work, so we can’t use those to try to enforce voter eligibility. But how do we vote? Are you really just advocating for voter ID? (which, fwiw, I agree with as I indicated previously) but you also have cast doubt on how well that works. So what would work, in your view?
They’re not being deported (absent from the list). They can’t legally work… so you can’t take money from them (making the fines pointless). The most you can do is put them in prison according to the “if convicted” list. I’m not sure that they care all that much about that in general if they’re coming from countries where you can’t find food or housing… prison might be okay and acceptable to them outright.
I’m not sure. And I never claimed to have an answer. But believing that some “nebulous” risk that nobody can define is stopping it from happening just isn’t a sane belief. It’s happening. To what scale? I have no idea either.
At the bare minimum I’d like deportation to be on the list for those we catch doing something that’s illegal. That previous article should have had all of those people removed from the USA IMO.
I’m more worried that somebody out there told an illegal alien that they could vote. Some stage in that process is either a lot of malice… or a lot of stupidity. Either way that’s something that could/should be fixed if it’s at all possible to.
Edit:
To elaborate on this as well… We don’t have that much free prison space anyway… And I would even propose that many states don’t want prison time for those who commit non-violent crimes anyway. This public sentiment severely limits the perception of going to jail for voting illegally as well.
The risk off getting caught being in the country illegally, which increases when you fraudulently vote in an election, dumbass.
Lol cite a single polling place that allows voting without identification.
Growing up in MA, I’ve never been asked for an ID to vote. Where do you live?
https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state
A control+f shows 17 matches… I’m sure you can read the rest.
Edit: @[email protected] Want to tell me why you downvoted me for providing evidence that 17 states don’t have an ID requirement to vote?
You’re making it out like states that don’t require a photo ID at the time of filling in a ballot have zero checks on the identity of a voter. I only looked at a few, notably California since you have brought it up, and that is not the case. The identity verification happens during registration and then again under certain conditions.
Even if an undocumented person went to vote in California they’d have to use a provisional ballot and that would of course be checked and rejected.
Now you’ve moved the goal post. The question comment I answered was
Which I successfully answered.
If you want to continue the conversation to registrations then I would point you to states that automatically register people who participate in government actions like registering their cars. Registering a car in some states will automatically register you to vote. What process of registering your car proves that you’re a citizen and should be eligible to vote?
And before you go twisting my words again. I’m not stating that this is happening on some impossible insurmountable scale. But it’s certainly happening. The government fucks up all the time… This process would be no different.
My point is still that there is no risk to an illegal alien to attempt to vote. The worst that happens is the vote is caught the thrown out.
I’m not the person you responded to and I’ve moved no goalposts. I’m pointing out that you’re misrepresenting reality to make your point. I’m in a state (Georgia) that gives you the option to register to vote when getting or renewing your license. On the form it is simply a checkbox. This seems like a clearly abusable system if you do as you have, which is to look at the surface level of the situation and cry foul, but the underlying reality is different.
In order to get my license I was required to provide documentation of my citizenship (in my case an original birth certificate) as well as evidence of my current address (in my case a utility bill). This underlying evidence is what is used to control my voter registration and prove I’m eligible to vote. Car registration is supposed to be tied to your home address and is handled by parts of the local government that share information, so being given an option to update an address for voting purposes when updating registration makes sense to me. I am not aware of if that is possible on my state. While I do not personally have experience with obtaining a license while not being a citizen and resident of my state, I know that whatever process exists for that doesn’t also allow you to register to vote.
If you’d like one I’ll give you a goalpost. Prove me wrong and show me a single state where a non-citizen can register to vote, go to a polling place and vote, and then have that vote counted.
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/21/1144265521/florida-voter-fraud-cases-prosecution-update
Here’s evidence of someone who was ineligible obtaining a card and attempting to vote, although not an illegal alien. This should show sufficiently that the system isn’t perfect and that people can obtain voter registration when they should otherwise be ineligible.
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/19-aliens-charged-voter-fraud-north-carolina-following-ice-investigation
And here’s evidence of illegal aliens voting and getting caught. This speaks that they’re at the minimum attempts to vote. We can safely assume that we don’t catch 100% of violators. And further don’t necessarily catch those that were successfully able to register without being found out since those would raise much less red flags if they successfully get onto a register in the first place.
If that’s not enough for you…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/03/06/truth-about-noncitizen-voting-federal-elections/
So when looked for… States that are aggressive about it find much more. And look at that NC… Almost like the link above now makes a ton more sense.
But how many managed to register and then subsequently vote? You really think they got 100% success rate?
Can we stop claiming that it doesn’t happen? And that there’s some risk involved when they do it? Every article that talks about it downplays it heavily. You can levy fines on illegal immigrants, they’re not supposed to work in the US anyway (and thus good luck garnishing wages), and according to the law deporting them isn’t on the table for attempting to vote illegally (check the second link). The most you can do is incarcerate them… except many states don’t typically like incarcerating non-violent criminals anymore. There is virtually no risk for walking in and casting a vote, even though it is supposed to be illegal.
I’ll repeat here what I said to you above in case others didn’t see my earlier comment and think your assertion is accurate:
Deportation is absolutely a risk for unlawful voting.
If the non-citizen is here unlawfully, they are always subject to deportation if ICE becomes aware of them, which may happen by referral during a criminal prosecution.
Even if they are here lawfully, they become deportable if they vote unlawfully per 8 USC 1227(6)(A): “Any alien who has voted in violation of any Federal, State, or local constitutional provision, statute, ordinance, or regulation is deportable.”
The reason “deportation” is not mentioned in the press release you cite is because removal is a separate proceeding, not part of the criminal proceeding (which is what the press release is about). They have to be convicted of the crime first, and then removal proceedings can be initiated.
Even if removal proceedings are not brought against them for some reason, they will still potentially suffer consequences for a conviction (in addition to the criminal punishment). For example, unlawful voting may prevent naturalization of a lawful non-citizen under 8 USC 1427 because they do not have the requisite good moral character.
Moreover, if they falsified documents to vote unlawfully, they may be found to have committed an aggravated felony, which means they face expedited removal proceedings, they can never get a green card, never become naturalized, can not be eligible for asylum, and can never reenter the US. See 8 USC 1158, 1182, & 1228.
So what you’ve demonstrated is that a fraction of less than 1 percent of voters registering in a few states MAY be non-citizens, a number so small it’s barely a rounding error, and that of that small number of people it seems we catch most of them long before they vote. I do not understand why this issue seems worth the effort you’re putting into it.
I’ll concede then that it does and has happened. However, I still think you’re going too far by claiming there’s no consequences while literally linking to attempted convictions.
I agree. I think he seriously underestimates the risks. If the person is here unlawfully, they have now caught the attention of the authorities and are more likely to be subjected to removal proceedings. If they are here lawfully, they now become deportable and, even if not removed for some reason, may decrease their chances at obtaining a green card or naturalization, depending on the circumstances. All of that on top of the criminal penalties.