• Fizz@lemmy.nz
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    2 months ago

    I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism. Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say. They also have the easier side to argue.

    Im not a vegan but I’m not talking shit to a vegan for fear of getting dragged into a veganism debate.

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say.

      this doesn’t make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that’s called sophistry.

      • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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        2 months ago

        I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position and often don’t have a good justification for why they’re not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position

          most of the time, maybe. but ex-vegans certainly do, among others.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans.

          it’s true that vegans often think far more about the moral arguments around veganism. i, however, find the arguments to be unconvincing, and often sophistic.

      • mathemachristian[he]@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:

        A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
        B) Animals are sentient
        ∴ Enslaving animals is wrong

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          i used a plural. it’s not just one argument. you’re not being very honest about the breadth of the arguments made.

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          animal agriculture isn’t slavery. i don’t believe even vegans believe this syllogism rings true. if they did, we’d have a lot more harriet tubmans and a lot fewer tash petersons.

    • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Most people are not prepared for interested in a conversation on veganism.

      Vegans have been refining these arguments preaching at people who didn’t ask for a decade now

      and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you as a gleefully evil animal abuser no matter what you have to say.

      They also have the easier side to argue.

      That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they’re missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.

      Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it’s fine that you have them and it’s super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.

      • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.

      • muix@lemmy.sdf.org
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        2 months ago

        Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          Why would that not include animals?

          three separate reasons.

          they aren’t people. the don’t participate in our society. tehy don’t respect the freedoms of others.

    • hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that’s more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with

      • slaacaa@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.

        I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.

        Still, I eat meat.

        Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?

    • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism.

      I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.

      • Passerby6497@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary).

        Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          going into a community and being a shithead should be a temporary instance-wide ban, yea. don’t go into c/DBZ and say “funimation sucks. dbz sucks. dragonball sucks. you are a bunch of dumb babies”.

    • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don’t try to shame everyone else into doing what you want and don’t feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.

        • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I’ve seen some of the pictures that have been posted in c/vegan. Some of them were literally brown slop. My family eats a number of vegetarian and vegan dishes along with those that contain meat. I don’t care what anyone wants to eat, even if it is brown slop.

          • Beaver [she/her]@lemmy.ca
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            2 months ago

            You’re choosing the worst looking examples of plant-based foods to suit your claim, any soup could be considered slop.

            You can make salads, tacos, burgers, bread, desserts all with plants.

            • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              Yes, I’m definitely picking the worst examples to illustrate my point just as someone else used the word, “murder” (the killing of one human being by another) four times when referring to non-humans.

              I haven’t seen any posts come up in All where I said, “That looks really good. I would eat that.” I remember several photos of puddles of lumpy goo where I thought, “Ew”.

              I’ve eaten plenty of vegetarian and vegan meals that I thought were delicious. I have no problem with vegetarians or vegans. I have a real problem with extremists no matter how they mistakenly believe that they are absolutely superior.

      • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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        2 months ago

        Ok what’s the moral justification for eating meat?

        • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          i don’t need one. there is no reason for me to believe it’s immoral. it’s probably amoral.

          • naught@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              if you have an argument that it is immoral, make it. i don’t care for your interrogative style.

              • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our “meat”. This isn’t even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.

                • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  2 months ago

                  I like to give people questions to ponder and explore.

                  if you don’t wan to construct an argument that’s fine, but the socratic method isn’t terribly convincing for me and many others.

                  • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 months ago

                    You can’t appreciate a philosophical argument on a philosophical issue? I suppose that can be valid. It seems to me you don’t want to consider the ideas I have raised in good faith

                  • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 months ago

                    There’s obviously no way to prove this sort of statement, however every conscious being I’ve asked has told me they don’t like suffering. Additionally, almost all conscious beings specifically go out of their way to avoid suffering. I personally find this evidence sufficiently convincing.

                  • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 months ago

                    Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering? We are fully capable of living with much, much less meat production. Why should we continue to inflict pain on things which can experience it? It seems manifest to me

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being?

              i suppose that depends on circumstances.

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture?

              that’s bad. buying beans doesn’t fix it though.

              • naught@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                This is a strawman. No one is arguing buying beans fixes deforestation. However, if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry. If legume farming was destroying the rainforest, I’d have a problem with that too

            • commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave.

              i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i’m always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.

        • joonazan@discuss.tchncs.de
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          2 months ago

          I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.

          I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.

    • Foni@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn’t make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I’ll debate it with anyone.

      • Fizz@lemmy.nz
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        2 months ago

        Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don’t need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don’t eat them.

        I’m not vegan so I’m not taking you up on that debate.

        • Beaver [she/her]@lemmy.ca
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          2 months ago

          Yup, vegans have science and studies to back up their claims while some meateaters have tradition and false equivalences to back up theirs.

    • Kroxx@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say

      Lol they fuck they can, they couldn’t even properly present and defend their own sources.

      https://lemm.ee/comment/14432604