I made this post because I am really curious if Linux is used in offices and educational centres like schools.
While we all know Windows is the mac-daddy in the business space, are there any businesses you know or workplaces that actually Linux as a business replacement for Windows?
I.e. Mint or Ubuntu, I am not strictly talking about the server side of things.
Linux in corporation fails in multiple ways, the most prevalent is that people need to collaborate with others that use proprietary software such as MS Office that isn’t available for Linux and the alternatives such as LibreOffice aren’t just good enough. It all comes down to ROI, the cost of Windows/Office for a company is cheaper than the cost of dealing with the inconsistencies in format conversions, people who don’t know how to use the alternative X etc etc. This issue is so common that companies usually also avoid Apple due to the same reason, while on macOS you’ve a LOT more professional software it is still very painful to deal with the small inconsistencies and whatnot.
Linux desktop is great, I love it, but it gets it even worse than Apple, here some use cases that aren’t easy to deal in Linux:
If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with others then native Linux apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. Once collaboration with Windows/Mac users is required then it’s game over – the “alternatives” aren’t just up to it.
Windows licenses are cheap and things work out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’re productive from day zero. Sure, there are annoyances from time to time, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience. It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.
From a more market / macro perspective here are some extra reasons:
Unfortunately things are really poised and rigged against open-source solutions and anyone who tries to push for them. The “experts” who work in consulting companies are part of this as they usually don’t even know how to do things without the property solutions. Let me give you an example, once I had to work with E&Y, one of those big consulting companies, and I realized some awkward things while having conversations with both low level employees and partners / middle management, they weren’t aware that there are alternatives most of the time. A manager of a digital transformation and cloud solutions team that started his career E&Y, wasn’t aware that there was open-source alternatives to Google Workplace and Microsoft 365 for e-mail. I probed a TON around that and the guy, a software engineer with an university degree, didn’t even know that was Postfix was and the history of email.
Lots of justification in this. Just be the change you want to see.
I only work with libre formats at work. If someone wants to collaborate, they can easily install libre office or gimp or freecad or gnu cash or whatever. Most libre software is free and cross-platform.
I salute you. Not many that are willing to do so. Maybe because most people don’t have very deep convictions on using FLOSS. It is easier to just do what everyone else does, after all.
I think the opposite. Working on windows is a pain in the ass. Like the system is not made for working and barely support it for actual computer work.
If you only use office or play video games, it’s good, certainly, and it’s good for the security team to have everyone with it because the system is built to only allow specific actions to be done. It’s completely inapt for actual engineering and technical work.
Have noticed the same.
One example why windows is bad for a developer. Lets say you work with
node.jsEventually you’ll end up withnode_modulesdirectory in you project with tens of thousands of files and thousands of directories. If you delete that directory in windows it takes minutes. In Linux it’s instantaneous.Depends on the engineering field, I have out a few specific examples of highly payed engineering fields that can’t get away from Windows.
Do share what they are.
Already did on the comment.
Ok, my mistake here. I was talking about computer engineering and technique. Other fields use a software. Windows is barely relevant to the question.
Okay so tell me, you’re working on a budget with a potential customer that uses MS Office. You want to win that customer and do a big project for him, would you “bitch” about him about using MS Office and ask him to install LibreOffice whenever the spreadsheet formulas don’t work properly?
What if said potential customer is a big company with strict IT policies? What if the person can’t even install software or is older and unable do it but very proficient with Excel?
Are you willing to lose a potential big customer, a project that will pay your bills for months just because a boomer can’t or won’t be able to install LibreOffice?
I tell customers to use Libre Office. I tell them its free, cross platform, give them a link to download it, and ask if they have any further questions.
If they said IT issues, I’d ask to talk with their IT department. Its not difficult to get IT to install trusted, open-source software.
You’re delusional or only deal with very low stakes because frankly if your costumer is a 1000+ employee company on industries like banking and whatnot you’ll just lose the customer right there.
Sometimes you have to do what is right instead of what brings you the most money
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I have worked for companies with thousands of employees, yes. It helps to be right about the cost, security, and usability benefits of using FOSS and be able to stand your ground and argue valid points.
But I do prefer companies with less than 100 people.
You can’t do whatever you want if you’re an employee in a big enterprise, there are company-wide rules and standards that you have to respect, you can’t expect your colleagues to adapt to you nor you can decide which OS to install on your company PC.
That’s not to say you can’t use Linux at all, you can ask your IT to be allowed to install Virtualbox and use Linux in a VM, that’s what I do, there are a lot of things that don’t strictly require Windows and I use Linux for those.
Sometimes its not even about colleagues, check my reply before https://lemmy.world/comment/6509728
Yeah and sometimes it’s not even just about customers, some people don’t realize big enterprises (as in dozens of thousands of employees) are very different from smaller companies, they’re like a “different world” on their own, not everything you can do on a smaller scale is feasible. They would probably need to work in one to really understand.
I make it very clear at the interview stage that I use Linux. Its never been an issue.
If someone tried to force me to use proprietary software, I’d say no. If they wanted to fire me over that, it would be ridiculous. It’s free and easy to support FOSS. Its costly & difficult to support proprietary software, so its not a hard sell.
You have more power than you think.
I’ve been a sysadmin for years and I worked longer on Linux than I did on Windows.
Many of your points are management bullshit. The proof? In France the gendarmerie (country police) moved to Linux about a decade ago.
The thing with windows is usually that management want a whole solution out of the box, from a renowned editor, so basically Microsoft. The key point is that they want a contract with a company so they can discard the responsability of failures on someone out of their own company. The second feature is that they are boomers or anti-nerds, so they are never going to be seen using something on a computer that’s not mainstream.
The last problem is from Microsoft that worked hard these last years to remove any compatibility between office and other softwares of this kind. They also enshitified office365 very hard so that is doesn’t work well on Linux.
The question of the price is a fraud. Large companies need an it service for Windows on top of the licences and infrastructure. It’s way cheaper with Linux. The biggest work with an enterprise Linux is to make it compatible with the shitty Windows environment, and the compliance with the useless security thought for windows.
Yes, they are and I never said they weren’t management BS. Nevertheless management pays the bills, management makes the decision.
You’re just saying what I said before…
Yes, but the end result is that nobody sane would even risk not using MS Office and that’s what it is.
It depends, integration between MS products and services usually comes out of the box or working with minimal setup while with open-source solutions / Linux that isn’t always the case. Also Windows sysadmins are usually cheaper because you can get more and they require less training to be “efficient” than Linux ones.
Yes but you still have do it and it has a cost. Simply going full Windows is cheaper at that point.
That’s where we disagree : anybody sane would use Linux rather than windows. Windows usage is based on ignorance.
You have zero idea about Windows system integration if you think it comes out of the box. Or you live in America. In Europe, data safety is a concern, and it raises many, many problems with Windows “out of the box”.
There are still use cases for windows. We have a predominately Linux environment (server and desktop), and a development team that build 80% of our operational software. That team are not fans of windows, but come across quite a few use cases where they have to use it because a 3rd party program won’t run on Linux; or an external connection requires a windows service; or there is no comparable product available on Linux (MS Excel is the one thing keeping me on windows). Even ignorance plays a part, because end users can still have had limited access to technology over their lives and in Australia that usually means windows computers in schools. I deal with staff in their 20’s and 30’s who know nothing of how technology works outside of “push that button and the thing happens”, if that button is a different colour, or shape, or location, shift is over, go home - they don’t care why it’s changed and definitely don’t want to learn a new way to do it. We’re somewhere between American data cowboys and the GDPR when it comes to data safety in Australia, which MS can be BS at and the integration burns more of our teams time than it should, but it’s still a necessary evil - even if it’s just when dealing with customers and vendors
If excel is keeping you on Linux, you’re doing it wrong. The problem here is undoubtedly ignorance and nothing else.
If it’s another program, wine made immense progresses these last years. You want to check about it.
Now, if you’re saying Linux is not ready out of the box, that’s true, but neither is Windows. Not if you have any important need. Windows is good for a customer, not for a company.
BTW Linux changed in the last ten years. It’s not the neckbeard system it used to be.
Now that I have a work laptop, I’ve installed Linux on my home computer and it was simple and runs fantastically - actual results may vary as I work in IT and have grown up with a high tech involved family. However, the hill I’m happy to die on, is the fact that using Excel above a basic level in business, where information needs to be shared with non-technical staff cannot be replicated in Linux, and that Excel is still the best product to do this.
People saying libre office is a full replacement for Excel haven’t seen what excel power users in offices can do. It’s usually people who in another life would be programmers but for whatever reason they can’t/won’t make the leap out of excel and into full fat programming. Expecting these same people to convert to a free clone of excel that uses slightly different syntax and has less polish is a great way to lose a very valuable employee extremely quickly.
I absolutely love the environment that Linux affords one, and I would financially support the developers of the tools I rely on (which of course includes libre office) if I were in the financial position to do so, but I’m not delusional when it comes to the role Excel plays in the 21st century office. The business world is run from poorly backed up, undocumented Excel spreadsheets on anemic desktops, and that ain’t changing anytime soon
I just looked up the definition of excel power user, and it’s mostly stuff I deal with on a daily basis, so I guess I’m a power user.
That being said I am switching to libreoffice currently because I’m tired of proprietary bullshit. I also like the idea of being able to change libre for my needs if I want. I haven’t seen any degradation other than a rough around the edges UI. What is libre lacking that MS has?
This is wrong about excel. Most thing excel do can be done with libreoffice. People are lazy to learn and convert their documents, and Microsoft does everything possible to make this harder.
Now you’re showing your ignorance - your statement is empirically false.
Well thought out post and largely true.
As a small counterpoint, I am supposed to use Windows at work but I use Linux. I would say that I am a “very heavy” but intermediate Microsoft Office user. That is, while I am not expert level in Office, I have to create and consume multiple documents per day. I give ( or submit ) several PowerPoints per week. These typically use templates supplied by Marketing or others. I create and consume multiple Excel files daily which almost always have multiple worksheets. I must admit that I have gotten authoring Word files down to maybe one per week but I open 3 a day at least.
Of course, I do not actually use Microsoft Office most of the time. Most of the above is in LibreOffice. I spend a tonne of my day in Outlook which I use in a browser ( Office 365 ). If I am opening a document from an email, it will often open in Office 365 online ( in my browser in Linux ). So do I use Microsoft Office quite a bit but rarely author anything there. While I prefer Firefox, I use Microsoft Edge on Linux and most often that is where I have Outlook open. Sadly, I have at least 3 to 4 Microsoft Teams meetings a day. Teams and GoToMeeting are why I started using Edge. It is just a nicer workflow if Teams and Outlook are in the same browser.
Anyway, I have very little problem exchanging documents. I had to switch to default fonts that Windows users will have of course but that was long ago now. So, I would not say that “alternatives such as LibreOffice aren’t just good enough” is a fair assessment for everybody. If I was an expert user in any one app ( in Finance maybe ) I could see this being true but I bet most office workers could use LibreOffice just fine these days.
Outside of Office, most of what I use are web applications which work just as well on Linux. I use containers a lot and they work better on Linux. Linux is quite bit snappier on the same hardware.
I am just a datapoint though and the issues you raise are real. I would perhaps just be less absolute about it. Trying Linux can still make sense. Also, you can try LibreOffice on Windows before jumping all the way to Linux.
Yes but you still have some little annoyances here and there. Is it worth having to fight your software to get your job done? Isn’t just easier and more productive to use MS Office (ROI described above and whatnot).
See this is what most people feel about Office, its just nicer to use the Microsoft thing and not ever having to worry about anything.
While I agree that for some people LibreOffice might work, there’s the following simple test:
Id’ say your comparison pictured is not valid. It’s not the same document in both programs. On the left you have opened Lorem Ipsum.docs and on the right you have a new untitled document.
If one truly wants to share final documents use pdf not a draft format like docx.
Yes its the same document. The only thing I did is “open a copy” because the document was locked in the other editor.
People share unfinished documents with each other and formatting should hold, otherwise how can you collaborate?
If you just copy paste something it’s not the same. If you want to make a true comparison you have open the same file in both.
And I was talking about finished documents.
There was no copy past here. If you have a docx open in MS Word and try to open it again with LibreOffice you’ll get this message:
I just clicked the default “Open Copy” option. The result is what you saw.
You lost me at developers. Hard disagree.
For what it’s worth, my company issues macs by default, but allows Linux or Windows if you request it. We just use Google Suite. Zero problems collaborating, and I work in a customer facing role.
i mostly agree except its leagues ahead for sysadmins and devs, it isnt even a contest. to counter your specific example, filezilla works great. i havent used a tool for this specific niche on linux that wasnt much better.
affinity photo is great on linux too if you are not too stuck with adobe. cant say much about other usecases you mentioned.
also wine runs old software better than windows in some cases. i have better luck with it on linux. funnily enough old linux software is a pain on linux in the rare situations where i need it.
Oh yes ahaha