Besides, insofar the comparison with Hawaii is accurate, it would be an argument for the independence of Hawaii not against the independence of Taiwan.
Even though the dumb dumb wasn’t saying this, you’re right about the parallel argument for the independence of Hawaii, since the US invaded Hawaii and forced the last Queen to formally recognize a usurping American provisional government under duress.
The last recognized Queen of Hawaii wrote this even soldiers invaded her palace:
"Now, to avoid any collision of armed forces and perhaps the loss of life, I do, under this protest, and impelled by said force, yield my authority until such time as the Government of the United States shall, upon the facts being presented to it, undo the action of its representatives and reinstate me in the authority which I claim as the constitutional sovereign of the Hawaiian Islands.”
So she signed over the temporary authority but not sovereignty of the islands, and this was not resolved until Hawaii “officially became”@ the 50th state, despite the Kingdom of Hawaii never abdicating its sovereignty and only recognizing a provisional us gov. under violent threat.
Giant country stealing an independent island nation by force, pretty solid parallel there.
This is just an interesting history share, btw, and in no way in support of elon, who clearly has no idea what he’s talking about.
I think what you mean is that Taiwan considers itself to be an independent state, whereas the People’s Republic of China, on the mainland, considers themselves Taiwan to be a part of their territory.
Difficult issue to even discuss without taking sides, really!
Should note that the “Taiwan is the real China” brand of politics has basically died out in Taiwan. Yes they are technically “The Republic of China” but China has said that changing that is tantamount to declaring de jure independence which would trigger a war.
Taiwan (for the most part) just wants to be Taiwan.
(See also why the “West Taiwan” meme is frowned upon and completely misrepresents what most Taiwanese people want.)
TIL, thanks, I have edited my comment accordingly. I have never liked the whole “west Taiwan” thing anyways - while I disagree with a lot of what the PRC does, I think unilaterally declaring that an entire nation should be governed by a different nation is shitty, imperialist behaviour. The only time I think it’s valid is for people expressing their wishes for their own homeland, and even then it can still be imperialist.
Historically (pre 1949) mainland China was their own homeland. The Republican government fled to Taiwan during the Chinese Civil War. But I guess the people of Taiwan have moved past laying claim to their homeland for various reasons.
There’s a lot of layers there, Han people have been settling in Taiwan since the 17th century and this originally Taiwanese-speaking group makes up about 70% of people in Taiwan. They don’t consider China their homeland anymore than Americans do the UK.
Han people who came with the fleeing KMT government are more directly tied to China, but even they have been largely Taiwan-ized politically since the democracy and identity movements of the 1980’s. Which is to say, very very few people in Taiwan see China as a homeland these days.
The KMT conducted a 40-year fascist reign of terror where they wiped out most of the native Taiwanese and killed tens of thousands of Han who agreed that the KMT had lost and that integration needed to happen.
Yup, the White Terror. I didn’t disagree with that.
My point was that the KMT coming to Taiwan was a wave of migration of people who while very anti-PRC saw themselves as fundamentally Chinese and Mandarin-speaking as opposed to pre-1945 Han settlers who were Taiwanese-speaking and in many cases had been living in Taiwan for hundreds of years already.
Today, those distinctions have softened, and polling shows that even the people who are descended from that wave of KMT migration mostly see themselves as Taiwanese first and foremost.
While that used to be the case, it is no longer true - Taiwan acknowledged the PRC as the legitimate authority over mainland China in 1991 and released their claims on the mainland.
Most people in Taiwan do not consider them to be part of China. Taiwan was also a settler colony, BTW. The indigenous people were there for thousands of years before the Han Chinese settlers showed up in the 1700s.
Thanks for mentioning it, I’d like to add that Taiwan is still a settler state. Taiwanese Indigenous people still live there, and have been waging their own battles for greater rights and sovereignty within Taiwan for centuries. Unfortunately, in all the Taiwan v. China noise their voices and concerns get drowned out.
One is providing defensive weapons against the other that wants to snuff out the views of the majority on the island. There should be nothing surprising about that.
The majority of the people in Taiwan do not consider themselves to be part of the PRC and the indigenous Taiwanese certainly do not.
Have whatever qualms you want about the US but it is pretty clear that China is not wanted in Taiwan.
You honestly think the USA gives the slightest shit about Asians on the other side of the planet? You probably think they care about who governs a sliver of land in the most corrupt shithole in the modern world in Europe too.
The majority of the people in Taiwan do not consider themselves to be part of the PRC and the indigenous Taiwanese certainly do not.
And those indigenous Taiwanese? How do they feel about being Taiwanese?
I and tons of others in the USgive a shit about people on the other side of the planet. Do you not?
Not sure what country you are talking about in your second part but your statement sounds a little racist.
The indigenous Taiwanese do not consider themselves to be part of China.
The majority of people in Taiwan do want US aid so I’m not sure where you are getting that the US is not wanted. China is not wanted in Taiwan certainly.
Besides, insofar the comparison with Hawaii is accurate, it would be an argument for the independence of Hawaii not against the independence of Taiwan.
The Hawaii comparison make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Even though the dumb dumb wasn’t saying this, you’re right about the parallel argument for the independence of Hawaii, since the US invaded Hawaii and forced the last Queen to formally recognize a usurping American provisional government under duress.
The last recognized Queen of Hawaii wrote this even soldiers invaded her palace:
"Now, to avoid any collision of armed forces and perhaps the loss of life, I do, under this protest, and impelled by said force, yield my authority until such time as the Government of the United States shall, upon the facts being presented to it, undo the action of its representatives and reinstate me in the authority which I claim as the constitutional sovereign of the Hawaiian Islands.”
So she signed over the temporary authority but not sovereignty of the islands, and this was not resolved until Hawaii “officially became”@ the 50th state, despite the Kingdom of Hawaii never abdicating its sovereignty and only recognizing a provisional us gov. under violent threat.
Giant country stealing an independent island nation by force, pretty solid parallel there.
This is just an interesting history share, btw, and in no way in support of elon, who clearly has no idea what he’s talking about.
Hawaii is a US settler colony however, Taiwan regards itself as part of China.
said Blursty.
said Taiwan’s Foreign Affairs Ministry
I think what you mean is that Taiwan considers itself to be an independent state, whereas the People’s Republic of China, on the mainland, considers themselves Taiwan to be a part of their territory.
Difficult issue to even discuss without taking sides, really!
Should note that the “Taiwan is the real China” brand of politics has basically died out in Taiwan. Yes they are technically “The Republic of China” but China has said that changing that is tantamount to declaring de jure independence which would trigger a war.
Taiwan (for the most part) just wants to be Taiwan.
(See also why the “West Taiwan” meme is frowned upon and completely misrepresents what most Taiwanese people want.)
TIL, thanks, I have edited my comment accordingly. I have never liked the whole “west Taiwan” thing anyways - while I disagree with a lot of what the PRC does, I think unilaterally declaring that an entire nation should be governed by a different nation is shitty, imperialist behaviour. The only time I think it’s valid is for people expressing their wishes for their own homeland, and even then it can still be imperialist.
Historically (pre 1949) mainland China was their own homeland. The Republican government fled to Taiwan during the Chinese Civil War. But I guess the people of Taiwan have moved past laying claim to their homeland for various reasons.
There’s a lot of layers there, Han people have been settling in Taiwan since the 17th century and this originally Taiwanese-speaking group makes up about 70% of people in Taiwan. They don’t consider China their homeland anymore than Americans do the UK.
Han people who came with the fleeing KMT government are more directly tied to China, but even they have been largely Taiwan-ized politically since the democracy and identity movements of the 1980’s. Which is to say, very very few people in Taiwan see China as a homeland these days.
The KMT conducted a 40-year fascist reign of terror where they wiped out most of the native Taiwanese and killed tens of thousands of Han who agreed that the KMT had lost and that integration needed to happen.
Yup, the White Terror. I didn’t disagree with that.
My point was that the KMT coming to Taiwan was a wave of migration of people who while very anti-PRC saw themselves as fundamentally Chinese and Mandarin-speaking as opposed to pre-1945 Han settlers who were Taiwanese-speaking and in many cases had been living in Taiwan for hundreds of years already.
Today, those distinctions have softened, and polling shows that even the people who are descended from that wave of KMT migration mostly see themselves as Taiwanese first and foremost.
You misunderstood. He meant the PRC by “China” in that instance. The Taiwanese rulers consider themselves to be the rightful rulers of all of China.
While that used to be the case, it is no longer true - Taiwan acknowledged the PRC as the legitimate authority over mainland China in 1991 and released their claims on the mainland.
Give them a break, they’ve only had 30 years to learn that
Most people in Taiwan do not consider them to be part of China. Taiwan was also a settler colony, BTW. The indigenous people were there for thousands of years before the Han Chinese settlers showed up in the 1700s.
Thanks for mentioning it, I’d like to add that Taiwan is still a settler state. Taiwanese Indigenous people still live there, and have been waging their own battles for greater rights and sovereignty within Taiwan for centuries. Unfortunately, in all the Taiwan v. China noise their voices and concerns get drowned out.
Nonsense. Who told you that?
The Taiwanese people:
https://apnews.com/article/taiwan-china-mao-zedong-international-news-asia-pacific-c8a1f7669442b2b86ddff1563c3bd0e9
Where’s your info coming from?
Poor bastards. Thanks.
One is providing defensive weapons against the other that wants to snuff out the views of the majority on the island. There should be nothing surprising about that.
The majority of the people in Taiwan do not consider themselves to be part of the PRC and the indigenous Taiwanese certainly do not.
Have whatever qualms you want about the US but it is pretty clear that China is not wanted in Taiwan.
You honestly think the USA gives the slightest shit about Asians on the other side of the planet? You probably think they care about who governs a sliver of land in the most corrupt shithole in the modern world in Europe too.
And those indigenous Taiwanese? How do they feel about being Taiwanese?
The US is not wanted in Asia full stop.
I and tons of others in the USgive a shit about people on the other side of the planet. Do you not?
Not sure what country you are talking about in your second part but your statement sounds a little racist.
The indigenous Taiwanese do not consider themselves to be part of China.
The majority of people in Taiwan do want US aid so I’m not sure where you are getting that the US is not wanted. China is not wanted in Taiwan certainly.