Need a politics-free safe space? It’s called “going for a walk”

  • dartos@reddthat.com
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    1 year ago

    Lemmy has some very aggressive communists.

    I’ve been lucky enough to dodge the crazy right wingers though.

            • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              I’m not your buddy lib. Why would i be your buddy when you think I’m comparable to a fascist?

              I’m supposed to trip over myself to be civil to you when you call us the “lesser evil” to fascism?

              • CheezyWeezle@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Damn, we found their trigger word! Lesser evil! LESSER EVIL!

                It’s funny how hypocritical you are right now, too. You wanna label “liberals” as fascist, but get all pissy when the same happens to you with the same amount of credibility.

                What’s funny is that you lot all seem to fail to realize that “Liberalism” is not inherently left or right wing, unless you are a reductionist who doesn’t believe that social liberalism exists and only believe Classic Liberalism exists. You all talk big about your political knowledge and how nuanced your beliefs are, and then you fall victim to the classic conservative notion of reductionism. Seeing “lib” used as an insult around here is just as hilariously pathetic as all the “snowflake” shit

                • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  trigger word

                  It’s funny how

                  What’s funny is

                  Terminal reddit brained response smuglord

                  I never called a lib a fascist. Liberalism is inherently right wing because its the ideology of capitalism. I understand that there’s distinctions between different types of liberals, and between them and fascists. I did call libs like you and the other poster, to use their phrase “the lesser evil” because you support capital but arent fascists.

                  If you don’t like being lumped in with other right wing tendencies then stop supporting capital. Its not our fault that reality is marxist che-si

                  • CheezyWeezle@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    Why are you lot so obsessed with reddit? Can’t you leave that place behind? I mean, haven’t you ever thought that people on reddit talk the way they do because its how most people online in general talk? Reddit didn’t invent linguistic trope. I digress.

                    And what makes you think I am a libertarian? What makes you think I support capitalism? Just because I don’t directly support your exact ideology doesn’t mean you get to straw man the criticism away. You and your ilk with that and ad hominem, or some other fallacy. Never able to directly hold an argument on it’s own merits. It’s fuckin hilarious lmao

                • UlyssesT [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  trigger word

                  Way to drop that mask, chud.

                  Are you still mad about Anita Sarkeesian’s videos, too? frothingfash

                  What’s funny is

                  It’s funny that

                  it’s ironic that

                  you like it that

                  it’s interesting that

                  enraged liberals try to mask their rage behind passive aggressive openers like that.

      • BigNote@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Which is ironic considering that you guys are the ones always claiming that people can’t handle having their views challenged.

      • CheezyWeezle@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Nah I’m pretty sure it’s the same reason why Hannah Montana and Miley Cyrus are never seen in a room together

      • dartos@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        I think that’s awful an immature behavior. When you fight idiocy with aggression (at least on social media) you just get idiots who think they must be right and start truth social or something

          • dartos@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            I usually just ignore them.

            I find that a lot of crazy right wingers do it to “own the libs” or get a rise out of their supposed enemies. It’s all just a sports game to people like that.

            If you ignore them they get bored and stop being so staunch in their awful beliefs. When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.

            Almost nobody posts on the internet trying to challenge and reconsider their beliefs, so it’s not like you’re going to change their mind anyway.

            I mean that’s what I think, at least

            • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              I usually just ignore them.

              Does ignoring the fascists make them go away? Please.

              If you ignore them they get bored and stop being so staunch in their awful beliefs. When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.

              So now you’re accusing us of making fascists more fascist, as an excuse for your ridiculous theory of just ignoring fascism.

              like you’re going to change their mind anyway.

              Its not even about changing their minds. Its about forcing them out of shared spaces. Fascists should driven out, shamed, harassed, and redacted.

              What you think is lib bullshit that gets your spaces infiltrated and taken over by fascists and reactionaries.

              You want to ignore them fine, but don’t condescend to people who confront them and drive them out of shared spaces as if you have a more “mature” solution. Your solution is literally “if i close my eyes they go away” baby logic

              • dartos@reddthat.com
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                1 year ago

                And here we see an aggressive communist in the wild. You have a good day, dude

                • SexMachineStalin [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  We actually study history and read shit. Like I just finished reading Long Walk to Freedom & Armed and Dangerous, both are a fairly good firsthand on how “fascists” respond to non-violence and only start to have reservations when the oppressed shoot back.

                  Oh and PIGPOOPBALLS

                  • dartos@reddthat.com
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                    1 year ago

                    It’s just polarizing. You’re just making people more staunch in their beliefs or just annoying people who would rather not deal with aggression (like myself)

                    If your goal is to drive people away and make a space where everyone just agrees with you all the time then it’s effective.

            • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              When you fight with them it makes them feel like they’re right. You end up forcing them to rationalize every shitty position.

              Literal fascist talking point. “Look what you made me do”

              I mean that’s what I think, at least

              Investigate before you start thinking next time. Are trans children out there looking for fights just by existing or is your belief that fascists need to be provoked first founded on nothing but bullshit?

              • dartos@reddthat.com
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                1 year ago

                Yknow I’m talking about on social media platforms, right?

                Frothing at the mouth raging at someone on a social media platform doesn’t do anything but cause more radicalization, so I just ignore people instead. I don’t spend most of my life fighting with people on the internet over politics.

                • AOCapitulator [they/them, she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Frothing at the mouth raging at someone on a social media platform doesn’t do anything but cause more radicalization

                  Are you deadass actually suggesting that people are transphobic ableist nazis because communists go after nazis online?

                  or are you saying that it radicalizes more people into avid antifacsist communists, which is an unambiguously good thing (unless youre on team nazi)

                  This is a real question, please answer.

                • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  I don’t spend most of my life fighting with people on the internet over politics.

                  You won’t push back on fascists, but you can’t shut up when pushing back against people who believe in pushing back fascism.

                  cause more radicalization

                  Its been pointed out multiple times now that this is literally a fascist talking point. Pushing back against fascism is not what makes people fascist. In fact its how we protect the targets of fascism on shared spaces online or off.

                  As has also been pointed out to you some people just existing is seen as an incitement by fascists. What are they supposed to do? They can’t just ignore threats and the invalidation of their humanity. That you can shut your eyes to that says a lot about you.

                  • dartos@reddthat.com
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                    1 year ago

                    They can do whatever they want.

                    I don’t care what other people do, I just ignore people I don’t think are worth failing with.

                    And yeah pass judgement if you want, but how I choose to deal with people on the internet is up to me.

        • HornyOnMain [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Regardless of handwringing about it, the fact remains that we’ve driven out and proud fascists off of lemmy instances that we’re federated with. The simple existence of hexbear pulls the Lemmy overton window so far left that social democrats are now the right wingers - this is a good thing.

        • UlyssesT [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          immature

          The most maturity obsessed internet people, like you, act like smug adult children while policing the maturity of others. smuglord

    • Wogi@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Hey I’m not an aggressive communist. I like to think I’m a pretty laid back communist.

      I mean unless we’re talking about the rich. But like my whole political ideology kinda hinges on aggression in that direction so…

      • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        I mean unless we’re talking about the rich. But like my whole political ideology kinda hinges on aggression in that direction so…

        I think the common Communist definition of “Rich” and Marx’s might differ vastly, and I think the vagueness of the word is half the reason. I see too many Communists calling for the death to (for example) computer programmers because many of them are able to save up a couple million by retirement. I know a few that ended up with $10M cash because they worked for a profit-share startup. While I’m not an expert on Marx, I’m pretty sure that’s not what he meant when he referred to the bourgeoisie.

        Hell, I don’t think he ever predicted the massive number of “petite bourgeoisie” that we have now in much of the west, people who put in 60-80 hours simply to live the same life the rest of us live but not have to obediently answer a boss. I’d do that if I could. You’d think Communists could make allies of both the successful proles (like programmers) and the petite bourgeoisie.

        If you draw “rich” somewhere close to the $100M mark or higher and include some asterisks on the ones you think should be murdered in the streets (assuming that’s what you meant by “unless we’re talking about the rich”), maybe most people will agree you’re not an aggressive communist (but still be terrified of you like we are of anyone who wants to kill someone for who they are). If you’re going to look at a grandma who has $2M in savings after her husband dies, the world’s got problems with you.

        I mean, if you want to peacefully dismantle people like Musk, then I’m 100% on board with you. If you would support someone taking sudden and violent force to him, as much as I think he’s a douche, that’s why we use the word “aggressive”.

        • Facebones@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          And yet nobody minds the aggression of capitalism and the right on anybody other than well off cishet white men 🤔

          Across the country LGBTQIA people are being actively censured, stripped of their right to exist, and outright physically assaulted. There’s no concerted trend trend to bitch about THAT violence, but mention a guillotine and half the fediverse comes out to cry about how we’re all just meanie tankies out to murder anybody who makes more than minimum wage.

          • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            And yet nobody minds the aggression of capitalism and the right on anybody other than well off cishet white men 🤔

            Really? NOBODY minds that? I can’t be pro-LGBTQIA without believing that any possible system except strict communism will work? You’re talking black & white thinking, the same as the anti-LGBTQ extremists. There are miles of Left, even far left, that aren’t Authoritarian Communism (that isn’t authoritarianism but does involve Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the exertion of authority. I was fucking THERE, marching there, when they legalized gay marriage in my state, one of the first in my country. I had a good friend be in the first 50 gay marriages in my state. Does it not count if I’m not a Tankie? All my friends who were out there risking their safety against the Catholic alt-right violence in my state didn’t count?

            Look, you touched a nerve here, and I’m trying to take a breath. Maybe I misread you. Are you genuinely trying to say that you can’t oppose far-right violence without being a Communist? Or (perhaps just as bad) are you trying to say that if I’m not ok with violence against queer and transgender individuals that I need to be ok with violence against all liberals?

            And I’d like to quantify that I got hit this morning with a dozen replies putting me in the “liberal them” pile, basically agreeing that if I don’t strongly support violence against the non-Communist supermajority, I’m a liberal and have no right to call myself a leftist. I hate the tearing down of the pacifist Left I keep seeing.

        • Wogi@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I have no problem with an individual acquiring wealth on the fruit of their own individual labor. The computer programmer getting a buy out from a venture capitalist has successfully gamed the system without being personally responsible for harm to others. At least directly. Usually.

          My problem is with people who exploit the labor of others for profit. No billionaire earns that last zero without causing harm. They perpetuate violence for profit, knowingly. That violence can take a lot of forms, from unsafe working conditions all the way down to actual fucking slavery.

          The thing is, you can’t participate in capitalism without either extreme ignorance or at least a little complacency towards that violence. And fine, there’s little to nothing most of us can do about it. You exist in this system, you’re a part of it. You’re either ok with others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate in your breakfast croissant, or you aren’t.

          I don’t see a peaceful remedy to this problem. We can talk about theory, about “yeah just organize and vote” until we’re blue in the face but the reality is that system is actively rigged against us. We can talk about organizing your workplace and demanding better conditions, but that system is actively rigged against us too, even if you’re already in a union.

          We are actively rocketing towards a very bleak future and every passing day without cataclysmic change only pushes it down the line. And every day we push it back, it increases in magnitude.

          So frankly, if someone is going to commit violence on my behalf, I’d rather it be directed at the problem than directed at my peers in the working class, wherever they may be.

          • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            My problem is with people who exploit the labor of others for profit. No billionaire earns that last zero without causing harm

            I’m mostly on board with you. But I’d like to cite “Notch” (of Minecraft) as an example of someone who earns the last zero without causing harm. Pure fucking luck? Sure. Should be part of a society that will redistribute his wealth? Definitely. Perpetuating violence for profit? I dunno what he’s doing now, but he wasn’t when he got that billion.

            The thing is, you can’t participate in capitalism without either extreme ignorance or at least a little complacency towards that violence.

            As a demsoc, my whole position is described by stopping the violence from within. There are parts of capitalism that are palatable, though it will inevitably end up in a horrible state if left to stagnate. But if I had to choose between universal healthcare and welfare for all and a violent revolution that fewer than 10% of people actually want, I think the former is a better option. And despite me having a lot of the same goals as the groups seeking that revolution, they still terrify me.

            You exist in this system, you’re a part of it. You’re either ok with others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate in your breakfast croissant, or you aren’t.

            Please understand that this terrifies me. The black & white no-middle-ground thinking is the foundation of so many atrocities. That idea that you cannot improve capitalism, or that a “better capitalism” is still identical to “others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate” is the kind of madness that leads to authoritarian regimes. I’m against capitalism in general. I’m also against a smallish number of people with guns replacing capitalism with something else.

            I don’t see a peaceful remedy to this problem.

            Can you acknowledge that a state that over 90% of humans would be happy with is still within “the problem” for you? If not, please understand that THIS is why most people incorrectly batch Communism with Fascism. If so, please understand why you having a problem is the problem and you need to learn to differentiate between the Bidens and the Trumps. Biden is “the other side”. Trump is satan.

            We can talk about theory, about “yeah just organize and vote” until we’re blue in the face but the reality is that system is actively rigged against us.

            Let me be clear about this. I’m part of the same category batched as “progressives and leftists”. WE represent about 9% of the population in my home country. That part is unfortunately Democracy working as designed. Not rigged. WE should represent a larger percent of the population, but unlike Billionaires and Church Leaders, we can’t seem to find common ground between Far Left V1 and Far Left V2.

            But you’re right. With less than 6% of people in your country supporting your particular views, voting is not the answer. But, IMO, neither is violence. If 6% of the country manages a coup, I will not be happy no matter how much of their views I agree with. Because that’s an authoritarian regime.

            We are actively rocketing towards a very bleak future and every passing day without cataclysmic change only pushes it down the line. And every day we push it back, it increases in magnitude.

            Everything you say here I agree with. But if we can’t get the support for “very bleak future” under 90%, then you’ve failed even if you temporarily succeed.

            So frankly, if someone is going to commit violence on my behalf, I’d rather it be directed at the problem than directed at my peers in the working class, wherever they may be.

            My wife’s best friend is Petite Bourgeoisie, she owns a breakfast diner near the local project. She makes less than her workers in all but the most perfect months. I have no problem with her. I have problem with anyone who will make her choose between surrendering her freedom not to answer to an ownership structure (even a communal ownership structure), or “going up against the wall”. Ironically, it is the part of me most sympathetic to the goals of communism that support her attempted independence from private ownership. I have, on many occasions, been told she would be in line for death or disenfranchisement. Do you understand my reservations? I PREFER an imperfect capitalism if that is the only alternative. And you might not have meant it, but you came across as saying that’s the only alternative, and by way of violence.

            • Eldritch@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Whether or not notch directly hurt anyone himself. (He is now) The money he was paid was blood Money derived from persecuting destroying and monopolizing the market on Microsoft’s part.

              • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                So are you or are you not advocating for the murder of Notch? If so, I will oppose you at all costs as I would any extremist. If not, then what exactly are you disagreeing with me about?

                • Eldritch@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  No. Definitely not as long as he will help to work to make a more just and amicable Society. However if he or others try to violently oppress or push everyone down. All bets are off. One of the things these wealthy people need to remember is that we far outnumber them. And their money only isolates and protects them as long as we are marginally content. Should we ever get focused enough to the point to come for them. They stand no chance. So it’s in their interest to work with us. I don’t care if they have a slightly better life than average. So long as people aren’t homeless and Starving in the streets.

                  • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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                    1 year ago

                    I have never had a problem with self-defense. My problem is how often some folks talk proactive violence against a fairly vague definition of “bourgeoisie”, or merely “the rich”. And (I’m sure you can understand why I’d have a problem) that some folks talk like I’m in the receiving-end category of proactive violence.

                    I know it’s not popular here, but I hold Communists to the ACAB-rule. For me to consider respecting a member of ANY group where a substantial percent is advocating for violence against myself or those I care about, or proactive violence at all, I need to know that person strongly and openly opposes that behavior and is part of trying to fix it. If you do that, I’ll happily have a beer with you.

                    I don’t think Communists and Tankies are the same thing, but a lot of Tankies are pulling “no true scotsman” even here about advocating for violence against (for example) liberals.

        • GeneralVincent@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          You frame it as killing someone for who they are (rich) while the aggressive communist frames it as what the rich have done (destroy countless lives for personal monetary gain)

          Not saying that it’s ok, I wouldn’t condone murder in a public setting of course. Just saying :)

          • abraxas@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            I’m not ok with the death penalty for serial killers and rapists, and I think the laws we have now (if they were enforced) cover for corruption.

            I have a rule. No matter how shitty the rules, nobody should die for playing by them. Ex Post Facto protections are a hallmark of preventing justice from being another name for authoritarian persecution. Of all people, it tends to shock me that Communists struggle to see that when they are the first to back extreme versions of ACAB-attitudes.

            I know rich people who are… just fucking rich and that’s it. Lottery, good job. Smart little investment. Most rich people don’t destroy lives directly for monetary gain. Is there an indirect effect between wealth distribution and suffering? SURE, but holding someone accountable by violence for something they indirectly effected when it was legal? I just can’t see it no matter how they frame it.

            It’s like COVID opposition. When we didn’t have laws against their bullshit (COVID spreader parties?) it is unjust to now go back and pass a law to punish there behavior merely because it caused hundreds of thousands of extra death.

    • Zeth0s@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      From what I see, it’s full of wannabe rebel communists, who claim to be communist because they like the idea of revolution. The type of people that think that wallstreetbets is communist because “they fight the system”.

      Marx and gramsci are turning in their grave reading some lemmy post

    • xploit@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      A whole bunch of these self proclaimed “communists” are supporting trump/trumpism…started with unfunny memes and well, I think we can all guess where they’re all going to end up.

      The funniest part is arguing about current “forms” of communism and capitalism and not realizing that it’s just the same shit from different assholes and a far cry from either.