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This period of peace in Western Europe is pretty special and I would like to keep it that way, thx
This period of peace in Western Europe
France: “We haven’t gone to war with Germany in decades!”
Me: “What about Libya?”
France: …
Me: “Algeria? Argentina? Rwanda? The Ivory Coast? Somalia? Chad? Basque Country? Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia?”
France: sound of FAMAS F1 cocking
This period of war in Eastern Europe is pretty shit and I would like Western Europe to take it more seriously, thx
So you’re saying we should invade Poland?
Don’t worry, western Europe is doing its thing. It’s electing fascists like Putin to create even more such wars. It’s the preferred alternative to Socialism for neoliberals, conservatives and social-democrats anyway
Humanity every few months
You misspelled “capitalists”.
Everyone in Europe killing each other every generation predates capitalism. Capitalism did increase the scale though; after the fall of the western roman empire, we didn’t see armies of that size until Napoleon managed to draft a million men in a country of 30 million.
Perhaps you would prefer “the ruling class”?
Lmfao, sorry (not sorry), I should have included feudalists too I guess, to avoid bootlicking pedants… 🙄
The point stands - war is waged for profit by profiteers, not by random civilians trying to live their lives, always was, always will be.
One exception to it : fascists managed to convince people who can only lose stuff to a war that it’s good for them too.
One exception to it :
fascistscapitalists managed to convince people who can only lose stuff to a war that it’s good for them too.Fascism is capitalism in decay, there is no exception.
I’d say facsism is just capitalism when you try to say no.
As in literally, people tried to say no via socialism and then fascism was invented.
don’t worry, the soviets joined ww2 as well
If by “joined WW2”, do you mean “got refused from any military alliances with England, France and Poland despite a decade of trying in an attempt to unify Europe against Hitler”? Or do you mean “getting invaded by the Nazis and losing 25+mn people in the process of eliminating Nazism from Europe”?
I mean invading poland side by side with the nazis, they weren’t interested in getting rid of the nazis, why do you think they had a nap?
You missed the part in between where they made a deal with the nazis and invaded eastern Europe
You missed the part in between where they made a deal with the nazis
I didn’t miss that part because there was no “deal with Nazis”. Nothing as bad as the Munich Agreement signed the previous year by England, France and Germany among others, allowing Hitler to occupy the Sudetenland, a land with more than 3mn people in Czechoslovakia (to whom the Soviet Union offered assistance but Romania and Poland denied pass to Soviet troops, possibly influenced by the fact that Poland also did a grab of land of Czechoslovakia). The USSR spent the entire 30s trying to push for a military alliance with England, France and Poland to stop Nazism, but they all refused because a good liberal would rather have Nazis first exterminate communists. Stalin went as far as offering to station 1 million troops, together with aviation and artillery, in France, in case Stalin invaded, to which England and France refused. Feel free to study the so-called “collective security policy” pushed by the USSR in Europe against Nazism.
The Soviet Union had been in a civil war until 1921 (right after a devastating WW1/, and before that it was a preindustrial nation. It had a whopping 19 years to rebuild the country from scratch and to industrialise, compared to the 100+ years of German industrialization. They desperately needed every single year of industrialization they could get in order to gain some advantage against the industrially superior Nazis, as evidenced by the 25+ million casualties the USSR suffered against the Nazis despite material help from the US. Making an agreement to postpone the war after every country in Europe refuses to enter a military alliance against Nazis just because you’re a communist country, is just the logical action to defend your citizens.
Please stop pushing revisionist nazi propaganda. Without the USSR, the slavic population of Europe, including Polish, Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian, as well as many other ethnic groups, would have been genocided in vastly superior numbers than they were.
0·1 month agobut Romania and Poland denied pass to Soviet troops
I thought Romania did?
“Rumania had agreed to permit Russian troops to pass through her territory to the assistance of Czechoslovakia as soon as the League of Nations had pronounced Czechoslovakia to be a victim of aggression” - Munich, Prologue to Tragedy by John W. Wheeler-Bennet, p. 100
Sorry, I was going with Wikipedia there, care to elaborate more on what happened then?
I’m not really sure how much more I can elaborate. I haven’t read the book—I read Flemmings book, see below, and found it to reference “Munich, Prologue to Tragedy”, so I went ahead and quoted it. Here is the full footnote which that part came from (with my own inserts in []):
quote
On September 11 [1938] M. Bonnet, at Geneva, conferred with M. Litvinov and M. Comnen, the Rumanian Foreign Minister. On this occasion M. Litvinov repeated his assurances that Russia would support France in accordance with the Pact of 1935 and informed him that Rumania had agreed to permit Russian troops to pass through her territory to the assistance of Czechoslovakia as soon as the League of Nations had pronounced Czechoslovakia to be a victim of aggression. He therefore advocated to M. Bonnet the urgent necessity of a joint démarche to the League. M. Bonnet again refused this suggestion and, in reporting the results of his conversation to the French Cabinet on the following day, said that the Russians and Rumanians had “wrapped themselves in League procedure” and had shown little eagerness for action
France didn’t uphold their part of the 1935 Pact, so the Soviet Union never came to help Czechoslovakia under the Pact. And President [of Czechoslovakia] Benes didn’t call upon the Soviet Union “outside” of the Pact:
The Cold War and Its Origins, Denna Frank Flemming, p. 84
In justification of the crucifixion of Czechoslovakia at Munich it was said that Russia could not be trusted and that her assistance would not be worth much in any case. On the points there could be honest difference of opinion, but not about the diplomatic record. Certainly the Czech Government did not doubt Russia’s sincerity. At a session of the Harris Institute at the University of Chicago in August 1939 I asked President [of Czechoslovakia] Benes whether Russia would have supported him had he decided to fight in September 1938. He replied, without an instant’s hesitation: “There was never any doubt in my mind that Russia would aid us by all the ways open to her, but I did not dare to fight with Russian aid alone, because I knew that the British and French Governments would make out of my country another Spain.”
The rest of your comment is quite consistent with my own understanding of how things went down, which I got from Flemmings book.
So you are straight up denying the existence of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?
To be clear I don’t fault them for signing a NAP, I fault them for invading a bunch of eastern European countries with whom they had no quarrel because they wanted to do imperialism.
But I guess the fact that you dodged the question and immediately started spewing whataboutism proves that you’re not really interested in a discussion.
because they wanted to do imperialism
You’re just showing you don’t know what “imperialism” is. The USSR never engaged in resource exploitation or unequal exchange with other countries, its terms of trade were always comparatively fair, especially if you compare those to the terms of trade of the western world.
The USSR didn’t have any imperialist ambitions. For fucks sake, the literal first thing the Bolsheviks did in 1917 after the October Revolution, was to implement a constitution which gave the full right of self-determination and unilateral secession to all peoples of the former Russian Empire, it’s literally how Poland gained independence, as well as many other countries like Finland or Ukraine. What did Poland immediately do: invading Ukraine and modern Belarus and attacking the RSFSR during the Russian Civil War because of its expansionist nationalist desires of going back to Polish-Lithuanian borders. Maybe that helps explain why the USSR didn’t trust Poland not to join the Nazis, especially after 10 years of Poland, France and England rejecting to form military alliances with the USSR against Nazis? Finns, after the winter war, quite literally joined the Nazis in the continuation war, going all the way to participating in the siege of Leningrad.
After the war, most of these countries that the USSR invaded went back to being their own countries as the USSS retreated all its troops. Such imperialism, amirite? The influence of the USSR in the politics of Eastern European countries after WW2, isn’t any greater than the influence of the US in western Europe, so unless you’re claiming that the US was carrying out imperialism in western Europe (and would have carried it in Eastern Europe too if it weren’t for the USSR), then no, the USSR didn’t carry out any imperialism.
immediately started spewing whataboutism
You literally have no idea what "whataboutism means, I gave a detailed explanation on why calling the Molotov-Ribbentrop a “deal with the Nazis”, and stopping there without further context, is revisionist and honestly very close to Nazi propaganda. You’re just saying “whataboutism whataboutism” because you’re actually incapable of refuting anything I’ve said.
There a whole article about Russian disinformation on this topic here. They certainly did have a pact with the Nazis. Your argument is basically “it didn’t happen, but if it did then it the West forced us into it” which is a 100% classic disinformation line. It’s like when Putin says there is no war with Ukraine, but if there is it’s because the West forced us to do it.
in the US we call that 9th grade
Just europe?
American students every couple weeks
I wish. Our students are kittens compared to European students. The police are going to riot anyways, stop bringing the kid’s gloves.
American Economics Professor: “We pulled ourselves out of the Great Depression by entering WW2”
American Economics Student: “I can’t afford my car payment and my rent just doubled. When can we re-invade the South Pacific?”
And nothing to do with those pesky socialist reforms of the new deal. No this social reforms ruined everything! Must kill for equity!
In fairness, if you get under the hood of the New Deal benefits, they relieved a lot of immediate suffering and mobilized a workforce that had been functionally abandoned by the private sector.
But they didn’t “grow the economy” in the same way as the enormous investment in the Military Industrial Complex achieved. The Citizens Conservation Corps and the Social Security Administration didn’t create the kind of high paying engineering and manufacturing jobs that state demand for thousands of new tanks and ships achieved.
WW2 full mobilization of the economy wasn’t just taking in the slack of a depressed market. It was a command economy in all but name, dictating every aspect of the industrial chain, from extraction to expenditure to recovery and recycling.
The tragedy of WW2 is that we could only permit this kind of logistical achievement for the purpose of joining a bloodbath in Europe, North Africa, and East Asia. As soon as Roosevelt passed, Truman began reprivatizing the economy as quickly as possible.
Yeah that’s fair. But the works and practice in mobilizing the workforce in the new deal played a big part in the US having industrial capability prior to WWII. Not mentioning other logistics, the power grid improvement alone may have made the difference in the war effort even being possible for the US. After the war private industry continued to benefit from cheap energy coming from those same projects. Hell if there’s a miuntain range in your state you’re almost certainly getting some of your power from a hydro plant made in the 30’s.
But the works and practice in mobilizing the workforce in the new deal played a big part in the US having industrial capability prior to WWII.
Hard to power the 1940s industrial economy without coal. And hard to generate coal without an electrification of the Tennessee Valley. Without a doubt.
Hell if there’s a miuntain range in your state you’re almost certainly getting some of your power from a hydro plant made in the 30’s.
Given his attitude towards public works, it’s very funny that Hoover has the nation’s largest dam named after him.
There’s also the west coast. The damming of the Columbia, while a natural disaster, made the region viable for manufacture and ship building. In some ways it lead to the possibility for the tech industry as well for better or worse.
The US constantly:
Yeah but at least we limit ours to small scale atrocities committed by civilians, and not all-out civil war. And proxy wars. And not-a-war-wars. And helping others with their own
warsgenocides.Fuck. Nevermind I guess.
It usually involves trying to start some shit with Russia.
