Why YSK: because what seems like equal situation from surface isn’t always equal opportunity for all. And even when equal measure of help is provided, it might not be equally useful.

  • smeg@feddit.uk
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    1 year ago

    Every time I see this quaint but misleading image reposted it’s necessary to make the same comment: the words attached to each image are do not exclusively represent those images. “Equality” could apply to all but the first; nobody uses “equity” this way; and most people use “justice” to refer to criminal justice and punishment.

    • Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Plenty of people use equity this way. Maybe not in your circles, but it’s not a new definition, it’s been around for decades. Millions of people in the US alone do not equate the criminal Justice system with the concept of Justice. Perhaps you should recognize that your perceptions are not able to be applied to the entire population. If you ever find yourself using “nobody” or “everybody” and you have no definitive data backing that up, I would recommend re-examining your biases, because what you appear to be doing is attempting to normalize your beliefs while otherizing the beliefs of others who do not share your view.

    • crazycanadianloon@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      It’s an infographic for children…? I think it’s meant to be simple.

      I’m sure 18+ people should already have a more nuanced view of what those words mean. And if they don’t I’m sure there are other materials they can peruse to help them understand.

        • whats_a_refoogee@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          The OP comment did not criticize the comic for being too simple. He called it misleading. You’re both arguing with a strawman.

          Someone disagreeing with something doesn’t mean they didn’t understand it. It’s a really poisonous mindset that hampers intellectual discourse and development.

          • phillaholic@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            It’s not misleading. If you can explain it better in an easier way by all means…

    • HonoraryMancunian@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      But that one always brings out the smug responses about how they shouldn’t be watching the game for free, totally (and purposefully) missing the point

    • MeatsOfRage@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      The girl could literally just walk to the other side of the tree, there’s no actual barrier. This one is super ham-fisted because it can spark the wrong side of the debate.

      • DessertStorms@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        it can spark the wrong side of the debate.

        any discussion of the topic would though, because those who oppose the basic idea of equality, let alone equity or justice, know only how to derail and/or project, they are not interested in having a sincere discussion, because they whole heartedly believe that some people are worth less than others, and they will justify that in whatever way makes sense to them because in their mind, they’re all that matters.

    • Decoy321@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 year ago

      True justice would be them watering the tree or something. That dude has been giving to these little shits the whole time. Let it be The Getting Tree for once.

  • mex@sopuli.xyz
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    1 year ago

    Equality is letting anyone gather apples on any side of the tree.

    • whats_a_refoogee@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      I don’t see a fence…

      Maybe the real point of the comic is that the girl on the right is really stupid, so we should tilt the tree instead of having her lazy ass move the ladder.

  • 5in1k@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Putting supports on trees weakens them. The swaying makes them stronger.

      • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        It represents unintentional assistance though, not a bias that exists on purpose. Ex: old building entrance is higher than sidewalk, there’s stairs to go up, it wasn’t the intention to cut access to the disabled, it’s a consequence of the default choice.

        • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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          1 year ago

          Some of it IS intentional, though, or (as in your own example) lack of intentionality from another time with a lot less attention being paid to equal access for people outside of the “standard human” powerful people had in mind when building structures both physical and societal.

          There being a default at all is a form of discrimination and harm against the people that it disadvantages, whether or not it’s intentional.

          • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            The inequality wasn’t intentional, people didn’t put stairs so disabled wouldn’t have access, they put stairs because that’s what you do when you want people to go up and it had that unintended effect.

            The tree didn’t grow leaning on one side so the kid on the wrong side wouldn’t get apples, it grew like that because nature made it.

            Giving them ladders was intentional, building a ramp too narrow for wheelchairs that’s intentional… And that’s the difference between panel 1 and 2, they don’t have tools that are supposed to help them at first, then they are given a tool and they’re inappropriate for one of them.

        • uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 year ago

          Even if the inequality is completely accidental, shouldn’t we do something about it? Like, we don’t have to make everyone millionares, but if the system accidently makes some people suffer, shouldn’t we try to change that?

          • Beemo Dinosaurierfuß@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            I really don’t mean to be contrarian but I simply don’t understand how a leaning tree can be assistance in panel 1 but not in panel 2.

            • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              The leaning tree represents things that are unintentional, the tree just grew like that, it wasn’t on purpose.

              The second panel represents intentional assistance, it was given to them on purpose.

            • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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              1 year ago

              I really don’t mean to be a contrarian

              I’m not sure I believe that, but I’m gonna continue to give you the benefit of doubt for a bit more.

              The assistance being alluded to is assistance on top of the system to correct the negative effects of the system.

              The vast majority of the reasons any group of people is marginalised at all are systemic and stem from powerful people in the past (and, to a much lesser but still abhorrent degree, the present) writing the rules to give themselves and other people like them advantageous conditions compared to others.

              • Beemo Dinosaurierfuß@feddit.de
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                1 year ago

                Thanks for the benefit of the doubt I guess.

                I think I will stay at my own conclusion that this picture doesn’t do a good job of pointing out the differences between the panels.

                They could just as easily have given the left child the ladder from panel 1 on. That would show that just equalizing the tools and assistance doesn’t create real justice in a flawed system.
                I am not convinced that starting with no tools and assistance (aside from the tree that somehow is assistance in panel 1 and isn’t in panel 2) and then giving them both the same ladder makes that point very well.

                But maybe I still just don’t quite get it.

            • DessertStorms@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              It is assistance in both, but the point is that “equal” assistance in an unequal world (the tree still leaning one way) doesn’t actually provide justice, since those the tree is leaning towards still benefit more, even when the others have “extra” assistance.

    • fiat_lux@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Only if you consider no tools or assistance to qualify as “having tools or assistance”. So no, because while you’re correct that 0 == 0, you need values of greater than 0 to have something.

      • Beemo Dinosaurierfuß@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        I did consider no tools on both sides to be equal tools.

        Can you maybe eli5 why there is a need to have something in this example?
        I just don’t get any real difference from the first two panels.

        The exact same circumstances that punish the one kid in the first panel still punish them in the second. If anything they are worse off in comparison since the additional provided tools don’t serve any purpose for them but do help the other kid.

        • fiat_lux@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          Yep, so the point (I think) is to get you to contrast equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. It’s not hugely clear in the images, there are a few things that need to be assumed to make it clearer.

          Firstly the goal is not 1 fruit, the goal is to have a many fruit as you need. For some reason these 2 kids both need a lot of fruit. Maybe they have huge seeds and 1 won’t sustain a small child, I don’t know.

          Secondly, the tree in the first panel has fewer fruit to drop on one side, and it leans towards one person only. This is trying to communicate that they don’t have equality of opportunity. Both children have 1 significant barrier (height), but 1 child has an additional barrier of fewer fruit possible, and their height barrier is twice as tall. There is also an invisible forcefield preventing movement of children from one side of the tree to the other.

          So in the first panel, yes it is unequal because one kid gets nothing and the other gets something, which is an inequality of outcome. The difference in tree lean and number of fruit provides an inequality of opportunity - which is often harder to see in real life too.

          The second panel asks the question “what if we gave them equal assistance?” by providing equal ladders. Which is great, but if the assistance provided is only enough to help one child overcome the problem they both face while ignoring the other 2 problems the other child faces, you won’t have equality of outcome. And it can even cause greater inequality of outcome, because the left kid can reach a dozen fruit but the right kid can still only reach a few. For magic forcefield reasons.

          The third panel is different to the second, because they’re no longer only being provided equal assistance. They’re both being provided assistance equal to their needs, but the kid on the right still has fewer opportunities because there are fewer fruit. They have more equal possible outcomes, but it’s still unlikely to be an equal outcome even though you’re (sort of) helping one kid twice as much.

          And in the last panel, for some reason trees that are straight provide equal quantities of fruit on both sides? Whatever, the point us that the underlying systemic inequity has been addressed and you have proper equality of opportunity and potential for equality of outcome.

          Sorry about length, I hope that reply doesn’t cause more confusion.

          • Beemo Dinosaurierfuß@feddit.de
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            1 year ago

            Thank you for taking the time.

            I think I get now what panel 2 wants to tell me.
            I still think it would make the same point (or a similar one) more clearly if the left child had a ladder from start on.

            Then you could see that just equalizing the tools is not enough.
            Here I think it looks as if giving tools is worthless to even harmful, which I don’t agree with.

            But again thank you for writing it up, it was well written and very good to understand for me as a non native speaker.

            • fiat_lux@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Glad to be of use! It’s a pretty nuanced area of English, so I can understand how being a non-native speaker would make it even more difficult.

              I think the reason they decided on the tree lean/fruit quantity was to try to contrast inequality stemming from historical reasons with inequality stemming from no assistance being provided in that moment. Actively withholding needed resources can have the same effect as a system providing unequal resources over time, even if the historical reasons for that inequality weren’t decisions anybody alive today is responsible for.

        • DessertStorms@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          I did consider no tools on both sides to be equal tools.

          only if both people have the same starting point, but they don’t (in the illustration they don’t because the tree gives more fruit on one side, in reality this translates in to privilege, or lack thereof - a white person has more “fruit” and “tools” available to them than a Black person. An abled person has more “fruit” and “tools” available to them than a disabled person, and so on).

          The exact same circumstances that punish the one kid in the first panel still punish them in the second. If anything they are worse off in comparison since the additional provided tools don’t serve any purpose for them but do help the other kid.

          That’s the point - merely providing superficial assistance or tools or whatever, without changing the core of the problem (here - the fact that the tree leans only to one side) doesn’t solve anything.

          So providing a ramp to a building might help wheelchair users (but probably not a Blind or Deaf person for example) very superficially to access that one building, but it doesn’t change all the other inaccessible buildings, or the accessibility issues faced by the Blind or Deaf person (or whatever other disability that doesn’t require the use of a wheelchair), nor the system that sees disabled people as reasonable to exclude because we take “too much” work to cater to (which is a core and very real example of systemic ableism).

          Edit just to add: the one main flaw I find with this illustration vs the one with the boxes (here is my personal favourite example), where the obstacle is man made, is that the tree, ie the system, is made to look natural, when in reality it is anything but.
          Capitalism (the core system that is the tree, and it’s branches are racism, sexism, ableism, queerphobias and so on) has done a fantastic job convincing society of the lie that humans are naturally greedy and selfish, and of “social Darwinism” and all that eugenicist crap, when in reality humans are hardwired to work together.

  • bcjin@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Based on the images, Equity is better than Justice? Why should we alter the tree just to the beneficiaries liking? What about the tree?

    • mayo@lemmy.today
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      1 year ago

      Society isn’t a tree it’s a machine so we can bend it all we like.

      I’m ready for a more nuanced interpretation of these ideas that treat the later frames more like aspirations than goals.

    • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Why should we alter the tree just for the beneficiaries liking

      We designed the tree, so we should fix the tree now that we realize it has problems. The analogy is to the society that we created.

    • Match!!@pawb.social
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      1 year ago

      humans typically consider it righteous to reduce the amount of human suffering, including at the expense of plants and for some, including at the expense of animals

  • cloudy1999@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    This is a helpful explanation. The distinction between these terms is not so obvious and people believe they know the meanings without comprehending them.