Just going to keep posting this every time it comes up.
We could reduce energy and materials cost of global production worldwide to 30% current capacity by planning production instead of leaving it to the market, and greatly increase the standard of living for everyone on this planet. But first we have to get rid of capitalism and institute democratic socialist planning.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/7n1POfYMo1I3kcy0oqSm6l?si=8ikYVJN8TIupvjoaCMRssA
But first we have to get rid of capitalism and institute democratic socialist planning.
All strains of Socialism are democratic, it’s a bit redundant to include unless you’re trying to emphasize the democratic factor as opposed to our current system.
Yes this is what I believe as well but to many people Socialism is synonymous with authoritarianism. Many of those people are amenable to Socialist ideas if not able to be won over completely as you and I have been.
Also, (not to begin the debate about AES) but I think its fair to say that where many socialist projects have failed is in the arena of democracy. Maybe its just a feature of the tradition I come from, but to me that commitment to democracy has to be constantly renewed. Not bourgeois democracy but worker democracy. The working class has to learn real democracy in order to engage in political struggle in preparation to overthrow the ruling class.
Lenin was constantly stressing and renewing his commitment to democratic process, which was one of the reasons he was able to create the revolutionary party after 1905 that was able to seize power in 1917. And while he had no illusions about the limitations of democratic process within his historical moment, he always “bent the stick” in that direction which in my opinion was one of the things that made him such an effective leader prior to and up through the civil war period ending in 1921.
So I will always stress the importance of democracy, not only for the historic necessity and precedent but also because it is not enough to be good materialists (and there certainly has been a history of bad ones) but also good dialectitians, which means contextualizing our project through unificatiokn of the subjective and objective; and to fail to do so is to fail to be dialectical Marxists. If I have to work and debate with some Harringtonites in the process well that is just a necessity of the historical moment.
Yes this is what I believe as well but to many people Socialism is synonymous with authoritarianism. Many of those people are amenable to Socialist ideas if not able to be won over completely as you and I have been.
That’s fair, but can backfire and delay radicalization, giving rise to “left” anticommunists that ultimately help contribute to antisocialism more than they do to pro-socialism, as their anticommunist views are magnified by bourgeois media. Chomsky, for example, is guilty of this.
Also, (not to begin the debate about AES) but I think its fair to say that where many socialist projects have failed is in the arena of democracy. Maybe its just a feature of the tradition I come from, but to me that commitment to democracy has to be constantly renewed. Not bourgeois democracy but worker democracy. The working class has to learn real democracy in order to engage in political struggle in preparation to overthrow the ruling class.
This is where idealism and practical realism need to reach a balance. Unfortunately, in the face of international Capitalist and Imperialist dominance has forced stronger measures.
Lenin was constantly stressing and renewing his commitment to democratic process, which was one of the reasons he was able to create the revolutionary party after 1905 that was able to seize power in 1917. And while he had no illusions about the limitations of democratic process within his historical moment, he always “bent the stick” in that direction which in my opinion was one of the things that made him such an effective leader prior to and up through the civil war period ending in 1921.
Yep, but Lenin also banned factionalism. He tried to combine worker participation and democracy with unity. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, of course, I just want to stress that even Lenin made concessions, and had to.
So I will always stress the importance of democracy, not only for the historic necessity and precedent but also because it is not enough to be good materialists (and there certainly has been a history of bad ones) but also good dialectitians, which means contextualizing our project through unificatiokn of the subjective and objective; and to fail to do so is to fail to be dialectical Marxists. If I have to work and debate with some Harringtonites in the process well that is just a necessity of the historical moment.
I understand, I just want to stress that you risk playing into anti-Marxist hands, which is the entire reason for DemSocs.
Honestly I find this comment irritating, as you’re basically accusing me of being a crypto-reformist, when I explicitly call for an end of capitalism. As if I’m not constantly educating myself, And others to guard against this tendency of anti-marxism. Because I used the term “democratic socialism”, regardless of the fact that I acknowledge the wrongheadedness of the reformist strains, still you say I might fall into anti Marxism. If that happens it won’t be because I acknowledge democracy; and the fact that you think so little of my actual irl work because of my use of this term is insulting.
I’m going to refrain from criticizing you point by point, as you pedantically have done to me, and insist that I’m actually a good comrade, and hope you’ll come to the realization that the movement needs us both. Otherwise we are just going to in-fight, which if I wanted to do that I would debate within the org that I work with, where I might be seen as a human, rather than online where the medium itself encourages back-biting, factionalism and elitism by design.
In other words, cut me a break comrade.
I didn’t say you were anti-Marxist, just that the term “Democratic Socialism” carries the notion of Reformist Socialism, so some may interpret it that way. I was pointing it out because I believe you’re well intentioned, comrade, not to pick a fight. I apologize if it came off in that manner.
I appreciate the clarification and good will, comrade.
In theory yes. In reality all socialist systems had surprisingly few changes of leadership after one guy rose to power of the “socialist” movement or party. And they don’t really seem to trust their citizens to be socialist without a lot of fear, censorship, spying, silencing critics…
It’s almost as if the majority of humans reject socialism. Which is weird but true.
In theory yes. In reality all socialist systems had surprisingly few changes of leadership after one guy rose to power of the “socialist” movement or party
There are numerous reasons for this. Stability in protecting revolution and genuine popular support are among the larger and more important reasons.
And they don’t really seem to trust their citizens to be socialist without a lot of fear, censorship, spying, silencing critics…
Neither are Capitalist states, and neither was Marx. Combatting international Capitalist influence was and is key for retaining Socialism.
It’s almost as if the majority of humans reject socialism. Which is weird but true.
Not true at all, actually. Those controlling the media want you to think it though.
I agree with a lot you are saying. No state can stay stable without some form of control and censorship as soon as it starts threatening the stability of the system. Capitalism does this as well. And they have a very effective propaganda machine.
I feel like capitalist propaganda is so effective because it resonates so well with the basic human instincts and the part of humans that wants to be better than others and is greedy. The monkey brain is competitive and hierarchical. Socialism requires a level of empathy and intelligence a lot of people don’t have. They not only reject it because of media but also because they wanna climb that social ladder. No fun, if it doesn’t exist.
The leaders of most socialist countries though, seemed to not stop at the anti socialist critics. Even other socialist voices that they didn’t agree with got silenced (Mao, Pol Port, Xi Jing Ping making all his ministers disappear).
Also please don’t misunderstand me. I am not arguing against socialism. I am trying to find a form of socialist society that relies on as few authority and violence as possible. I always wondered why the socialist countries struggle so much with keeping their people in, while most refugees try to get into the capitalist societies.
We can do different than the last times. I don’t believe we’ll get not even close to a moneyless society until… God knows when, but the system has to change before we end up in a new feudal world where we all burn alive.
All strains of Socialism are democratic
Glances nervously at the ultra-nationalist strains
Some are more democratic than others, certainly.
emphasize the democratic factor as opposed to our current system
It is exhausting to hear people smuggly denounce AES states as dysfunctional, by citing their trend towards nationalizarion of capital and popularization of policy. Particularly when the same folks will scream bloody murder if you don’t continue to mechanically endorse their brand of corporate liberalism.
I genuinely am not really sure what you’re getting at, here. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I am stating that AES is democratic as is Marxism in general, and am saying that liberals often use the nebulous, ill-defined term of “Democratic Socialism” as an AES cudgel.
liberals often use the nebulous, ill-defined term of “Democratic Socialism” as an AES cudgel.
I see liberals try to equate any kind of public sector combined with a national election system as Democratic Socialism. Which gets you the Nordic Model - a collection of petrostates with an egalitarian veneer and a white supremacist underbelly - labeled “Democratic Socialism” on paper.
Meanwhile, actual social democracies in Latin America, Africa, and East Asia are denounced as authoritarian every time the Neoliberal (or outright reactionary) local politician loses an election.
I am stating that AES is democratic as is Marxism in general
Marxism is Democratic in theory. Leninism is more popular than democratic, as Leninists aren’t wedded to electoralism like their liberal peers.
But the critique I see most often among liberals is that markets are democratic. And therefore every AES state that fails to sufficiently privatize the economy is definitely facto authoritarian.
That’s the real definitional divide between Marxists and Liberal Democrats.
Democratic socialism (DemSoc) is a specific term (not to be confused with SocDem). Unless your point was that DemSoc is a bad term?
DemSoc itself is a bad term. It either is used to refer to Reformist Socialism (which is an impossibility and thus akin to astrology) or to pretend Marxist Socialism isn’t democratic, advocating for factionalism and other possibilities of Socialism itself being destroyed by international moneyed interests and domestic wreckers.
Are you some kind of maximalist?
In what manner?
whoa whoa whoa
slow down there Karl Marx /s
Speed up there Marx!
Sure, because that’s one thing socialist / communist systems are great at, making goods people want.
idk what your reference point is, but ime people want homes
But almost everybody wants something different in a home.
If i could guarantee my kids will have enough food and medical care for the rest of their lives unconditionally, only having to give up on my material belongings i will do so in a heartbeat.
If that means sleeping on straw and not owning any electronic devices but i get to keep living under the same roof with small garden i will still consider that a very cheap price to pay.
There is no point in all this luxury if we suicide our fucking species to create such.
You may be privileged right now, you may have it personally very good but your survival is just as dependent on society at large. If we don’t take action you too will be impacted sooner then you realize. And the more privilege you are used to the harder a time you will have.
It’s easy to be a hero in your own imagination. The real world shows that most people don’t actually do that.
The real world does not provide it as a realistic choice. You cannot do what i said. If one tried their family would just die with them.
Are you really arguing that your materialistic goods are worth more then the lives of future people? Because that is how your words appear. If so that is repulsive.
Parents have made much tougher sacrifices for their kids all over history, people leaving everything they have behind for a better future is a norm that continues to repeat conflict after conflict. Self-Sacrifice may be rare but to deny its existence is naively hateful.
If we don’t change our ways we wont even have a place to flee towards when climate conflicts arrive at home.
In your imagination, I bet you have big muscles.
The last panel should have an and, not an or
I misread this as “this country has always been ruled by the lich”.
And yeah, tbh, yeah.
That would explain a lot of policies…
And Dick Cheney.
Just putting it out there that “property owning” is not the class deliniator! I “own” my house/property and the only differences are that i pay rent to a bank instead of a landlord, and i can knock holes in the walls if i want to.
I’m still pretty much paycheck to paycheck, squarely in the working class.
We dont want your toothbrush dude
Eh?
Tis the difference betwixt private and personal property, we don’t want your toothbrush but your toothbrush factory however…
Of course you’re working class. It’s about the owners of Capital property. Does your house that you own (which I doubt since you imply you have a mortgage) make money for you?
It’s us versus a very small number of them.
It’s not about stopping climate change anymore. That ship has sailed and sunk.
Now its about surviving long enough to witness very bad things happening to very bad people.
There is still time to change course, however carbon sequestration is becoming a more important part of climate action. Doomerism just acts as an excuse to not take action.
witness very bad things happening to very bad people.
Yeah, not gonna happen in this life. Karma is a happy accident, not a rule
20 years? Jamie pull that up.
Well it was 25 years in 2019, and I’d round down since we’re in September so yeah, 20 to go.
Covid ended any hope I have. We couldn’t get people to put on a fucking mask or get vaccinations when the disease was right in front of us killing millions of people.
There’s absolutely no way we’re gonna get people on board with fighting the climate disaster. Humanity will be lucky if it survives itself.
Damnit, Gritty!
20 years? Not 25? I thought 2060 was when things would really crumble due to climate change is we continued business as usual (which is what we’re doing).
Does it matter? Ultimately, these are estimates. Educated, data backed estimates, but still estimates.
One larger than expected volcanic eruption, coral reefs dying faster than expected, whatever, all it takes is one or two things to not go the way they’re expected and everything speeds up.
20 years or 25 years, the point is we’re all kinda fucked unless we do something about it.
What we need to do has been and will continue to be debated ad nauseam, but we know we must do something.
Simple solution: take power, ban the right-wing parties and their financers, if they protest use acid cannons, blackmailing and censorship towards them and coup every country with a right-wing government.
How do you plan to take power? And if you manage, how do you plan to stay in power long enough? The average voter is a moron being fed propaganda for years. You will not take power democratically. And you will not stay in power democratically.
That’s the point bruh. Fuck democracy, right-wingers need to be treated like Pinochet treated socialists at this point. Censorship at max until we get out of this mess.
If you come at things from such a completely misanthropic point of view, you firstly are unlikely to get off the ground, but even if you do, you’ll just be creating what liberals think socialism is (a very bad and ineffectual thing)
What part of “far-righters get their ass open wide and rich people get their assets seized and if they complain Secret Services will “talk” to them in a “calm and mannered way”” isn’t socialism?
It’s a form of socialism in the broadest sense of the term, but what you’re describing has nothing to do with socialism as it has ever existed in the world and not something that should exist. Socialism must be democratic or it’s just a holding-state for fascism and, as you describe your “system,” an engine of gleeful murder.
Bro, you people are the first to want to eat the rich alive and when I propose a government that actually does that you all go “no, man, democracy is the way, peace and love”? Fuck that, I want revenge for this shitty world I’ve been given and a better world in the meantime, and the elite who caused this must pay dearly.
I guess I’ve discovered an “unreconstructed” socialist. I think an autocracy is bad even if it kills rightists, but that doesn’t mean I want to make peace with the rich. If the government isn’t bound by a popular mandate, then it’s just guided by the whims of whichever assholes are in charge, and you’ve basically reverted to monarchy.
Mao’s purging of the landlords was a great achievement, but it only worked because he left it up to the people rather than having the PLA go to every plot of land and dictate what is to be done with it. Likewise, it was also a great achievement that he was able to rehabilitate Puyi, the last Emperor of China, rather than resorting to killing him. Turning people into productive members of society is always the most preferential option, it’s just that it often simply isn’t viable.
Revenge is an idealist notion that doesn’t accomplish anything. It’s just sadism and leaves justice completely aside. Sometimes it is correct to kill people (and in times of war, unfortunately frequently so), but that is for the material difference that makes (e.g. diffusing threats) rather than because it rights some imaginary cosmic ledger.
Yes, we must seize power from the reactionaries, and that will require incredible violence and lead to lots of purging, but if we are separate from the people, we are just a military dictatorship like any other.
20 years before we die from climate change? Given the hellish climate we’re enduring here in south america, 10 years would be more believable
All countries have always been governed by the property owning class. With all its faults, capitalism has resulted in “peons” having the most say they’ve ever had. It’s not a lot, but it’s sure better than under classical democracy, feudalism, monarchy, theocracy, and “communism” at least as practiced in the USSR, Cuba, North Korea and China.
“communism” at least as practiced in the USSR, Cuba, North Korea and China.
What are you talking about? Research how many rights women and lgbt people lost when the GDR fell for an example of how wrong-headed this line of thinking is.
For those who want light reading, I highly recommend “Why women had better sex under socialism, and other arguments for economic independence”
Yes these rights rights were lost, but this paints the GDR in a positive light regarding regarding civil rights when in reality people who showed a smidge of dissent were persecuted.
when in reality people who showed a smidge of dissent were persecuted.
Look up how the stasi dealt with lgbt dissidents after being told to solve the issue and then come back here and say that with a straight face.
Dissidents for “hey we need to fix the problems of socialism” or dissidents for “we have to dissolve socialist democracy and let the capitalists pillage us” were treated very differently.
And the ones arguing for dissolving socialism got what they wanted, and the result is justification enough for their oppression tbh. Better to suppress right wing dissidents than let them oppress vast swathes of the population.
Dissidents for “hey we need to fix the problems of socialism” or dissidents for “we have to dissolve socialist democracy and let the capitalists pillage us” were treated very differently
Do you seriously tell yourself the GDR was a democratic socialist country? The GDR not being democratic was exactly it’s problem and why it couldn’t reform its problems. And yeah, the people only wanted to get oppressed by capitalists when they protested in Leipzig and Berlin. If you really believe that I don’t know what to tell you. Are you some Wessi who doesn’t know shit about life in the GDR?
And the ones arguing for dissolving socialism got what they wanted, and the result is justification enough for their oppression tbh.
Man, they wanted something better than the shit show that their life had become. They had many ideas about how they could reform their country. A new socialist constitution, a emancipated reunion with the West etc. All they knew was that it couldn’t go on with the current SED clique.
How did the SED respond? Fucking off with the last money. They left their population with no help when they negotiated with Kohl. But hey, to you that’s just capitalist propaganda probably. Now it’s the people’s fault that they got screwed by the capitalists pfffff
Better to suppress right wing dissidents than let them oppress vast swathes of the population.
Holy shit bro. Do you think Hohenschönhausen was filled with right wingers and capitalists and that your beloved party didn’t oppress the population? First of right wing networks were left alone all over the country. What we see now in Thüringen and Sachsen didn’t just hop over from the BRD after the wall fell. It merely got reinforced. Second, do you really think only right wing dissidents got suppressed? My father got in trouble because he stepped into the voting booth, NOT casting his vote openly for the SED. Democratic my ass bro, righteous suppression of right wingers lol. 100k Stasi agents 200k informants just for right wing dissidents, yeah right
Man, they wanted something better than the shit show that their life had become. They had many ideas about how they could reform their country. A new socialist constitution, a emancipated reunion with the West etc. All they knew was that it couldn’t go on with the current SED clique
They didn’t get something better though. They got capitalism, worse living conditions, and a bourgeois democracy that didn’t represent them either
How did the SED respond? Fucking off with the last money. They left their population with no help when they negotiated with Kohl. But hey, to you that’s just capitalist propaganda probably.
The SED literally lost influence and that let reunification happen. You’re blaming an organization that was trying to prevent something disastrous from happening for the thing happening disastrously.
Now it’s the people’s fault that they got screwed by the capitalists pfffff
Pretty sure it was the fault of the power dynamics at play, as reunifiers had taken control of the government and led to a massive looting of the GDR. And as for the SED “fucking off with the money” you get that the big impoverishment of east germany was that all the nationalized industries were given to private individuals, mostly people in West Germany who used to own(or whos parents owned) the industries prior to nationalization, right?
Also, I ask again: how did the Stasi respond to the lgbt movement in the 80s? Because that shit runs entirely contrary to the propaganda you’re trying to spew.
Highest pollution generating countries are communist 😂
Per Capita?
Are you referring to China? Because that would be an exceptionally bad example.
Yep, taking one of the most populous countries on the planet and judging it by total emissions is ludicrous, plus the PRC is drastically improving solar panel production and infrastructure. If the world was set to the same environmental standards as the PRC we wouldn’t have nearly as much worry.
Honestly I think China will be the only country actually reaching their carbon emissionsl targets set in Paris. All these preaching democratic nations are failing theirs year after year.
Yep, hopefully their solar production forces mass adoption among other nations and we can get back on track to mitigate environmental damage.
Not just that, but pretending China isn’t capitalist is wrong.
April 15th 1989
“Pick Me” vibes
We could be nuked today
I agree, we should focus more on climate change, though.
Climate change cannot be sufficiently addressed without oveethrowing capitalism. China built more solar capacity last year than the entirety of American installations and both American candidates support fracking.
Join a local socialist org!
Lol they also built more coal plants than the rest of the world combined in 2023
I swear you tankies are a hilariously ignorant bunch.
China did not start industrialization until 1949. Climate Change effects have been known since 1896 or 1824 depending on how you look at it. China literally did not start the fire 🔥
Lol China didn’t start the fire, but they’re literally pouring gas on it… it’s those damn western capitalist faults.
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. I said they installed more solar power than the US’s entire history, not a single year.
China is fulfilling its internationally-agreed climate commitments while the major imperialist countries do not.
You should find a more sustainable way to fulfill whatever drive makes you seek out this level of pointless smugness and guesswork gotchas.
The fuck are you talking about, they get 70% of their power from coal, they built 6 new plants in 2023. What the hell makes you think they’re going to fullfil their agreements?
It sounds like you have made no attempt whatsoever to understand. I will wait for you to tell me that you have spent five minutes looking for the relevant information. If you can’t, just tell me you couldn’t fins it and I will gladly show you.
What type of response is that…if you have proof from a factual source, then post it. Stop talking like you’re some wise tankie jedi.
Actually this is a very low bar but you managed to not clear it. This has confirmed a simple fact: you are here to fight and have no interest in the truth or learning. Obviously this was implied from the prior bad faith responses, but now we have cut to the chase.
Why should I waste my time?
Yes, they are rapidly developing and increasing percentages of their overall power comes from renewables, especially Solar, which they have invested tons of money into R&D to make scaling that economical.
I’m a communist. You guys came to debate yourselves.
?
China
socialist
LMAO SRSLY?
Yes, they have a Dictatorship of the Proletariat that carefully manages and plans a market economy in a transitional socialist state.
I love well managed ghost cities woah!
Developing for the future, what a wild concept!
Do you think that is a real thing?
Do you think you have fairly characterized my comment?
I didn’t say that. Wrong comment chain.
https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-59-the-destroyer-of-worlds/
I don’t remember the quote directly but it’s somewhere in the area of that;
We have gotten so used to living in the shadow of annihilation that we’ve forgotten to fear the constant threat of global destruction that nuclear war is.
This podcast really gave me some perspective on that.
Nuclear war didn’t happen and climate change is.
I see no reason why we can’t have both.
I don’t want any, that’s the point.
C’mon where is your sense of adventure.
I. don’t. want. bad. things. I. Want. A. Good. Life.
